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Another Dark Side of Football
28 November 2017 10:25 Post ID: #990060 - in reply to #988137
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But they are far outweighed by the predicted bad news and none are because of Brexit, Toms. (With the exception of drop in the ocean benefits resulting from a fallen pound.)
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28 November 2017 10:30 Post ID: #990061 - in reply to #988137
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"So Brexit is stopping us getting nurses from everywhere in the world outside the EU?"
Yes.

As for economists with opposing views, is it not then astonishing that they were almost completely in agreement about brexit? Maybe because the outcome was utterly predictable and the only question left was, 'How bad'?
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28 November 2017 11:08 Post ID: #990063 - in reply to #990059
in_the_top_one - 28/11/2017 10:24

But none are because of Brexit, Toms. (With the exception of drop in the ocean benefits resulting from a fallen pound.)


The point is that big banking and tech deals have continued to occur despite Brexit.
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28 November 2017 12:14 Post ID: #990064 - in reply to #988137
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None of those deals are because of Brexit, Toms. Don't pretend that they are.

It is clear that the economy is not performing well and the key reason is brexit.

Only manufacturing has increased and that's due to the falling pound.
If manufacturing were, say, 10% of our economy and increased, say 10%. That's a 1% increase because of a ~15% devaluation of our entire country, which is worth trillions. That alone costs the NHS around a billion pounds each year in purchasing from overseas, a 5 billion hole in the Defence 10 year programme, and so on.

It is ridiculously small compensation for a colossal blow. When you can stack one against the other and have them balance, I'll listen.
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28 November 2017 13:18 Post ID: #990070 - in reply to #990064
in_the_top_one - 28/11/2017 12:14

None of those deals are because of Brexit, Toms. Don't pretend that they are.

It is clear that the economy is not performing well and the key reason is brexit.

Only manufacturing has increased and that's due to the falling pound.
If manufacturing were, say, 10% of our economy and increased, say 10%. That's a 1% increase because of a ~15% devaluation of our entire country, which is worth trillions. That alone costs the NHS around a billion pounds each year in purchasing from overseas, a 5 billion hole in the Defence 10 year programme, and so on.

It is ridiculously small compensation for a colossal blow. When you can stack one against the other and have them balance, I'll listen.


The point is that these deals went ahead despite Brexit. They were not frozen or aborted when the Brexit vote happened. This is positive. Most people who voted Brexit acknowledged it would not be a bed of roses to start with

What I’m still not getting is how societies of the other 150 plus countries outside the eu are not breaking down as a result of not being able to take in eu workers. If the nhs needs further support, no doubt they can recruit from around the globe easily satisfying the business need and skills test.

The notion that the uk will be shunned by the rest of the world because of Brexit is a fallacy. We will come to arrangements and we will make our way. The only thing that would truly be a problem is if Corbyn got in. As confirmed by Morgan Stanley which would in those circumstances red flag the uk to their investment clients

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28 November 2017 13:41 Post ID: #990072 - in reply to #988137
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Toms we can agree that inward investment is a good thing.
We can also agree that new deals are happening despite brexit (which includes the implicit acknowledgement that brexit is bad for the economy).

What we now need to do is quantify "not a bed of roses" and also quantify "to begin with".
How bad will it be? And for how many generations?


It is Britain shunning the rest of the world, not them shunning us! I imagine they are pretty pissed off that we are leaving our agreements. Not just with the EU, but with all the countries around the world with which we have deals in place, or in the pipeline, via the EU. When we come to renegotiate those deals we will have the backing of our small market of 68 million people as opposed to that of 508 million. And we will still have to abide by the legislation laid down for us by the EU, the US and China, whether you think we will be 'independent' or not. Only from now until eternity we will have no say in the making of those regulations. Dumb move.

I've shown that the NHS is severely struggling to recruit from around the world and that struggle has been magnified by a 95% drop in applicants from the EU. So, no, it won't be easy at all. What possible basis do you have for suggesting it will be easy? How many of our major industries have come out and said that they'll be better off, or equally well off, after the end of free movement? And how many have come out demanding the opposite? Mine will be sorely damaged. Maybe you know the ins and outs of all these sectors better than their leaders, but I doubt it. You're just waving your arms in the air, shrugging and saying it'll be alright on the night. Again, no solutions offered whatsoever, just jingoism

And on top of that, there is a push to enshrine the leaving date in law, rather than thinking rationally about how long it will take to sort out the mess in a way that will cause least damage.
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28 November 2017 13:43 Post ID: #990073 - in reply to #990070
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toms - 28/11/2017 13:18

The notion that the uk will be shunned by the rest of the world because of Brexit is a fallacy. We will come to arrangements and we will make our way. The only thing that would truly be a problem is if Corbyn got in. As confirmed by Morgan Stanley which would in those circumstances red flag the uk to their investment clients



Jacob Rees Mogg is already advising his clients to move out of the UK, entirely because of the hard brexit course of action he favours!!!
What a traitor. Talking down Britain. Etc. etc.
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28 November 2017 17:46 Post ID: #990086 - in reply to #988137
Did you mean rees mogg or someone else?

I’m certain we will do deals and be an important country in this world. I would hope that our future immigration policy allows you to properly resource your sector from around the world and would also hope there be proper investment to increase productivity and increase the skills of people to also allow your sector to flourish.

As for your bed and roses question and the time involved, this does depend on the deal reached or not reached as the case maybe. If one can be reached with a reasonable transition period, you would hope that the uk will not be far away. I’m confident a deal will be reached.

With respect you seem to be the one throwing your arms up in the air in panic. Lets see where we are closer to 2019. You may be pleasantly surprised.



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28 November 2017 21:15 Post ID: #990103 - in reply to #988975
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Your quite right. I meant John Redwood, of course.
I don't think it invalidates my point though, do you?

Virtually indistinguishable. One ill-fated tilt at leadership in the past and one in the future, no doubt.

At least JRM has correctly called out David Davis as playing parliament for a fool. He may be many things, and indeed he is, but on the face of it he has a respect for parliamentary process!


Again your main point was, "it'll be ok. Calm down dear. It's only a Brexit". But you're stripping me of my rights, screwing up my work life, playing chess with my friends' families, riding roughshod over procedure, weakening the stature and strength of my country, denying opportunities and financial security for my kids, 'taking back control' into the hands of a small cabal of elitist fanatics, and presented zero evidence that it will turn out ok at an unspecified date in the future. And for what? The illusion of sovereignty (which doesn't exist in the form you want it to) and the right to kick out foreign people who we need and love.

The odd deal that happens despite Brexit when much else is being canned does little to satisfy my thirst for good news.

Will we muddle on with what we have? Yes, so long as you aren't already on the bubble of poverty. We're on a pretty solid foundation. But you are seriously underestimating the damage when you sweep it into comments like "short term pain" or "no bed of roses at first". We need solutions, not optimism. People don't have to die if we stay as we are but austerity is already killing people and many more will follow if dexeu screw it up.


Frankly, yes, I think it is approaching the right time to either panic or correct the mistake.

in_the_top_one - 16/11/2017 09:19

He's a despicable piece of work :
https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/11/12/british-lawma...
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28 November 2017 23:12 Post ID: #990105 - in reply to #988137
I actually have a bit of faith in Parliament delivering what parliament voted for in overwhelming numbers.

Jrm is a clever man. He is a strong brexiteer and sits on the Brexit committee . Whatever you think of his views, he seems to me to have a sense of duty.

The rest of your email puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of brexiteers with little or no blame being put on the institutions of the eu. It’s a totally biased diatribe.

But all of the things you have listed could easily be dealt with by politicians setting aside their personal self interests. Nobody is being kicked out of the country. Eu and uk National can be given a special status to travel between countries and study in different countries. We can agree a free trade deal. We can have a special partnership. All of this is possible. This is how other countries outside the eu work with the eu. These so called third countries maintain their sovereignty.

For me I just don’t believe in this European project. I think it’s going to morph into something amounting to ever closet Union. That’s not for us.

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29 November 2017 10:36 Post ID: #990113 - in reply to #990105
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toms - 28/11/2017 23:12

For me I just don’t believe in this European project. I think it’s going to morph into something amounting to ever closet Union. That’s not for us.



Ever closet union does sound a bit too cosy for my liking! The EU seems to have a one size fits all approach, which contradicts what has happened generally in Europe since WW2. As far as I know the two halves of Germany are the only countries that have combined. Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and USSR have split, allied with our own problems in Scotland, plus Catalonia, Belgium and regions of Italy. Very few people seem to like remote governments telling you what to do.

Regarding the NHS these problems clearly started well before Brexit. The NHS is expanding, but not fast enough to cope with the increased population and aging. ITTO it's interesting that you mention a midwife shortage, when 25% of babies are born to non-British born mothers.

https://www.ft.com/content/beb7831a-0b77-11e5-8937-00144feabdc0 Highlights the nursing shortage in 2015

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-staffing... shows that staffing numbers are rising, but not as fast as the population.
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29 November 2017 11:35 Post ID: #990115 - in reply to #988137
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Immigration subsidises the NHS. It would be worse without immigrants because a) they fund it and b) they staff it.
Our governments have been poor at redistributing the benefits properly which is why places like Boston feel unfairly put upon. They have a very understandable point but sadly lashed out in the wrong direction.

Can't believe you think Europe has grown apart since ww2! That's probably the most incorrect sentence anyone could possibly have made up. Gave me a good laugh though! Churchill wanted ever closer union, of course.


I'm on a lovely French train at the moment, thankful that eu pressure forced the telecoms companies to stop ripping off European citizens with roaming charges. But we don't want consumer protection anymore - it's just more bureaucracy and red tape for EE and Vodafone.
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29 November 2017 12:48 Post ID: #990120 - in reply to #990115
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in_the_top_one - 29/11/2017 11:35

Can't believe you think Europe has grown apart since ww2! That's probably the most incorrect sentence anyone could possibly have made up. Gave me a good laugh though! Churchill wanted ever closer union, of course.


I must have missed the bit where I typed Europe has grown apart, because I can't see it anywhere. It is clear however that countries don't like being ruled from some remote place, and there is an increasing backlash. Anyone would think we are the only country having trouble with the EU !

Also CONTROLLED immigration can be good, but it's clear that the uncontrolled immigration is having a major effect on the planning of schools, resources, wages, house prices, lack of investment in production because of labour supply etc
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30 November 2017 14:34 Post ID: #990171 - in reply to #990113
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Lienking - 29/11/2017 10:36

[ITTO it's interesting that you mention a midwife shortage, when 25% of babies are born to non-British born mothers.



How many of the 25% non-British-born Mothers are actually British citizens? At least provide some context. How many of these 25% are contributing to the system?

This line is the type of bile that the BF, NF, EDL and all other anal far right looneys spout. Remember that the biggest drain on our NHS service are white British born citizens. They same social group are also the biggest scroungers and benefit fraudsters.

But I assume that's all right because they are all white.
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30 November 2017 16:53 Post ID: #990180 - in reply to #990171
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Bremen Tree - 30/11/2017 14:34

Lienking - 29/11/2017 10:36

[ITTO it's interesting that you mention a midwife shortage, when 25% of babies are born to non-British born mothers.



How many of the 25% non-British-born Mothers are actually British citizens? At least provide some context. How many of these 25% are contributing to the system?

This line is the type of bile that the BF, NF, EDL and all other anal far right looneys spout. Remember that the biggest drain on our NHS service are white British born citizens. They same social group are also the biggest scroungers and benefit fraudsters.

But I assume that's all right because they are all white.


So following several pages of well informed debate from both sides, you think that anyone who disagrees with unlimited immigration is a racist loony? Firstly have you noticed that the EU (which some of us dislike) has a much higher percentage of white people than the rest of the world that the EU shuts out, so your racist slur is obviously nonsense.



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30 November 2017 18:12 Post ID: #990183 - in reply to #990180
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Lienking - 30/11/2017 16:53

Bremen Tree - 30/11/2017 14:34

Lienking - 29/11/2017 10:36

[ITTO it's interesting that you mention a midwife shortage, when 25% of babies are born to non-British born mothers.



How many of the 25% non-British-born Mothers are actually British citizens? At least provide some context. How many of these 25% are contributing to the system?

This line is the type of bile that the BF, NF, EDL and all other anal far right looneys spout. Remember that the biggest drain on our NHS service are white British born citizens. The same social group are also the biggest scroungers and benefit fraudsters.

But I assume that's all right because they are all white.


So following several pages of well informed debate from both sides, you think that anyone who disagrees with unlimited immigration is a racist loony? Firstly have you noticed that the EU (which some of us dislike) has a much higher percentage of white people than the rest of the world that the EU shuts out, so your racist slur is obviously nonsense.


You are allowed to disagree with "unlimited immigration" and to say so does not indicate you are a far right nutjob.

The issue is with what you wrote regarding 1 in 4 babies coming from non-British born mothers is typical of the inflammatory statements that come from the far right.

For example 50% of those 1 in 4 mothers may be British citizens. If that is the case then it puts what you wrote in a completely different context. Unless of course the intention is grab attention/headlines. In which case non-British born sounds better.
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30 November 2017 19:04 Post ID: #990187 - in reply to #988137
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Whether they are British citizens or not is irrelevant, If they were not born in the UK, surely they must have migrated here, or at least come here temporarily. There are many areas in which immigration has been beneficial to us (particularly doctors) but clearly in midwifery it hasn't been. Of course you could also argue that it's racist to be stealing doctors and nurses from other countries, many of which probably need them more than we do.
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